Ham Radio 360: Millennial Falcons-KB1LQC & KB1LQD

[00:00:00] The following is a presentation of the Six Arrows Radio Network Welcome to the Ham Radio 360 podcast with your host, Cale Nelson And welcome back in to the Ham Radio 360 podcast You can find us online, hamradio360.com This is a great show

[00:00:30] I don't want to say too much in front of it because it's going to speak for itself Let me just kind of say it that way This is one that we started working on back before the break

[00:00:40] And I'm just stoked that I can bring it to you because I didn't want to let this one get away from me And it's actually two parts. This is part one, I guess you'll have to say

[00:00:49] And I hope you enjoy it. I can't say anything else. Let's just get right to it Alright, so we've got a set of twins This is our very first set of twins on the show This is our very first set of brothers on the show

[00:01:07] It's also the very first show we've ever had with guys who have sequential call signs And in addition to that, it's our very first Rocket Scientist Guys, thank you so much for coming on. It's Brenton and Bryce And we're just excited to have you here from Fairday RF

[00:01:23] We've been following you guys on Twitter. We'll talk about your business in just a little bit But I really want to get to know who you guys are Rocket Scientist in real life

[00:01:31] My youngest son just about lost his mind when I said, hey dad's got to go talk to some Rocket Scientist And I'm really excited to know what and how in the world these young Millennial Rocket Scientist decided to get Why did they decide to get in-hand radio?

[00:01:47] Yeah, I guess I'll take it first here And yeah, both Brent and I are electrical engineers at SpaceX Now I guess I'll just start off by saying we don't represent SpaceX on the show here at all But just making sure that's known

[00:02:02] But yeah, we're both electrical engineers. They work on Avionics So that's why we're out here in the Los Angeles area Both of us grew up in the Boston Mass Area We were members of the WB1GOF club for years

[00:02:16] So we actually got into ham radio before we even got into rocketry Or I guess ham radio is what got us both into electronics I don't know if you want to comment on that Brent

[00:02:27] But yeah, ham radio is kind of a, that was the lead in for us Yeah it sure was And yeah, I think as back in 2004, 2005 time we both decided that we wanted to get our licenses And we'd been mulling on it for a little bit

[00:02:46] And playing around with electronics, our parents had bought us some starter together kits I remember an alarm clock and this other thing and we're like, this is amazing And it was just like, well, yeah, the old RadioShack kits Oh yeah

[00:03:04] And we were just like, you know, amateur radio There was no real maker movement, no real hacker movement back then That we were aware of and ham radio was that outlet for us It was let's go do this

[00:03:16] This looks like a lot of fun for electronics and fun that we can have using electronics Nice, yeah I remember those kits now You may or may not know I was a RadioShack employee for years in high school

[00:03:27] And Christmas time was always so much fun in the store Now, I got a default for a second It was a lot of fun most days But RadioShack was maybe not the most fun place to work with the politics of economy inside the store itself

[00:03:44] And then the general branding But man, what a blast it was to get these things in for Christmas and see parents come in And you know, can my son really do this? You remember the little 160 and one kits that had the little spring terminals Oh yeah, yep

[00:03:58] Oh man, those are the... I still have mine in my parents garage or somewhere I think I need to get it out but you know, you're right There was no maker movement but did we just rename the maker?

[00:04:09] Did we just kind of rename what used to happen in ham radio and start calling it maker Just to make it sound more millennial friendly? No, I would say no No? Okay

[00:04:20] I would say that if you look at the millennial post that I just wrote in a response to Sterling Coffee and Zero SSC His blog post which kind of blew up there He admitted it was a click big title, you know, Millennials are Killing Ham Radio

[00:04:37] But actually if you read it, he actually makes a point that not that Millennials are killing it But more that they're... we're different Like we are changing the paradigm of ham radio So I went on in Faraday Ref because we've been good friends with Sterling for years now

[00:04:53] Back we had an old website in college, collegearc.com doesn't exist anymore And we met them there And I kind of built upon that from our perspective of what benefits do Millennials have Like from our generation, especially people who are into technology

[00:05:12] What traits do we have that actually could absolutely change the hobby for the better And likely for the long term to let it have these traits that survive and make it more relevant

[00:05:27] So that's what I went upon in the article and building upon his points that he made You know, you hear a lot of people... I'm sorry But you hear a lot of people just totally freak out because they don't think kids

[00:05:41] And I'm calling you guys kids because you're much younger than me But we hear these people in panic mode, oh my gosh the hobby is going to die, blah blah blah

[00:05:49] I've heard the same thing in every hobby I've been involved with since the internet kind of came around On these forums that we participate in, you know the internet's killing the hobby The hobby is going to die because young people don't want to get into it

[00:06:00] But here we got Rocket Scientist on the show right now talking about how they are participating in And really how Ham Radio got them into their position, their jobs I'll talk about that in just a second, but I think I might have cut Brent off

[00:06:13] And Brent, I'm sorry but come back in with your thought there Sure, yeah, no worries at all I just wanted to add to come back into the point about did we just rebrand Ham Radio and the maker seen naming

[00:06:31] And I disagree with that because Ham Radio has always been a subset of the electronics community It's been a very focused subset whereas there's been people playing around with electronics for as long as electronics have been around

[00:06:47] And although there was a vibrant community within Ham Radio and Ham Radio itself is based a lot on community Which is something that was fairly unique to it and I believe with the maker movement that happened over the last decade

[00:07:03] The other parts of electronics communities rose in their prominence within as a community So you have things that were isolated in the past like Ham Radio, you have the Bytes computer movements back 25 years ago, 30 years ago

[00:07:20] That's before my time, but these isolated groups and now you have them all united under this hacker and maker community That really sprung up because of the internet and because of the access to cheap parts and cheap prototyping services Nice, I like that

[00:07:38] Yeah, and that makes total sense to me It really just like you said the internet did it because I mean how would we even be having this conversation without it And really why would we be having the conversation without it

[00:07:50] And did what did they say the video killed the radio star? Yeah, I remember that song when it first came out Yeah, I'll add one more thing that just kind of blows my mind

[00:08:04] Bryce and I in college we ran the K2 GXT Amateur Radio Club at the Rochester Institute of Technology And we did a high altitude balloon back in 2010 And even then there were very little services to get circuit boards made cheaply

[00:08:22] So we actually etched those circuit boards in our apartment using whatever acid we were using at the time Fair chloride Yeah, fair chloride and we printed out the circuit board on photo paper and ironed it onto the boards and everything

[00:08:42] Drilled press and it took us days and the quality was pretty bad but it worked And now you can spend 20 bucks and get a four layer circuit board in two weeks

[00:08:55] Yeah, you can get them made in China, get them made in America, you can get them made anywhere And it's ridiculous how rapid the turnaround is on that thing I mean it's just amazing So really tying it back in

[00:09:09] I think it's important that we do not try to make the other electronics communities feel like Ham Radio was the original Because we were just part of that original ecosystem, we weren't the original And to the best of my understanding

[00:09:27] And I think that's important because we need to include everyone from that community And not say we are this unique brand We offer a lot of unique abilities within electronics that other parts of electronics communities don't But they also have a lot of skills and abilities

[00:09:45] It's another gear in the mesh Very true, yes Yeah, I like that Which kind of goes back to your job and how amateur radio electronics got you into amateur radio

[00:09:58] Now amateur radio has you in on electronics so it's just kind of like a sine wave, I don't know Going up and down, you know maybe Yeah, it certainly keeps us busy, that's for sure

[00:10:09] Yeah, so you guys are kids up in the northeast and you're building these Radio Shack kits I mean did you guys ever just get a set of walkie talkies for Christmas And like you know if we can make these talk any longer

[00:10:24] Or why this wire is wrapped around this magnet Did you guys ever just like start destroying and hacking stuff as kids Or did you just play with the kits your parents got you and kind of learn from there

[00:10:35] I would say that we didn't like take the walkie talkies and make them go further Although I mean we played with walkie talkies and stuff usually in terms of like I don't know when we were playing paintball or if we were kind of

[00:10:51] Sneaking around the neighborhood and the middle of the night Yeah, pretty much But we definitely took apart like I remember even from a mechanical standpoint I remember like taking apart an old rototiller, you know like the gardens

[00:11:07] I just remember taking apart the engine kind of getting covered in like gasoline Like figuring out oh wow that's a piston right Having no clue how to put it back together But it was fun to like learn how that stuff worked

[00:11:16] And then I remember we took apart a TV once Like an old TV that was broken, that was really cool And that was like for years we would use scrap parts from our resistors and everything I think Brent spent like two weeks once

[00:11:26] Just like organizing resistors and that's how we learned Resistor color codes, like he was better than me for years because of that But he also went kind of crazy Yeah, I was seeing color codes at night Yeah it's like when you got to play in Tetris too much

[00:11:45] And you would wake up in the middle of the night playing Tetris in your mind But you woke up in the middle of the night looking at resistor color codes Exactly Red, yellow, brown You know we had a cheat sheet at Radio Shack

[00:11:56] You could have gotten for like $4 back in the day And it would Oh don't tell me that So here I am, I stay at home dad, home school with my kids Really you know my kids are into some things that are fun and cool

[00:12:10] But really just not electronically inclined Although my eldest daughter did say dad I would really like to finish building that radio kit we started last year So she's kind of wanting to solder a little bit more Any encouragement for parents with kids?

[00:12:25] I know a lot of parents now want their children to grow up and be coders You know they're like got their three year old in their writing code or something I'm not going down that road, I'm not interested in that necessarily

[00:12:35] I'm gonna let the child make their decision But you know when you guys know that you're older and you look back Are those kits the best places to start to really introduce Or is there anything any better nowadays 25 years later?

[00:12:52] Well I guess my thoughts in this is that The times are changing all the time so there's always different avenues I think the best thing that our parents did Because you know our dad especially had a little bit more of a knack for like technology

[00:13:11] And you know he did a lot of his own mechanics and a little bit of his own soldering But never really understood the electronics theory themselves He could put some kits together But what he really did was, in both my parents did

[00:13:24] Was to enable us to explore these interests that we have But never pushed us to do it So and I really think that that was key because It became this fun thing that Bryce and I did together And it wasn't something that we felt like was work

[00:13:46] Or something that we should do just like school And what ended up happening was I remember for years Not really understanding why the circuits were going together these ways But I could understand more and more these different blocks And you know in reading the schematics

[00:14:02] And how to apply them and how these things sort of meshed together And it really taught me the fun side of electronics And the fun side of even programming Like we didn't really have those great modern computers growing up for a long, long time

[00:14:19] But I remember like you know we got this really old, old Windows computers Probably ten years old at the time and I thought it was great Because I remember getting on there and doing like QBasic And nowadays we have like Python and all this other stuff

[00:14:32] That is mainstream that is similar to these electronic kits Where you can go on and have these projects from a coding perspective That has a very low overhead to start So I think it's just important to show the application

[00:14:50] Show how you can have fun with electronics in a very simple way But not pressure, I think that was the best thing our parents did Yeah, no pressure part is important there And nothing is guaranteed, right? We definitely, there were probably aspects where

[00:15:06] I mean I remember growing up I didn't know if I necessarily wanted to be an electrical engineer And I think for a while there I wanted to be a guitarist And then you know I played a lot of guitar growing up Decade over like almost two decades there

[00:15:21] And then I remember journalism were both pretty into writing For the school newspaper stuff like that You know it probably helps with the blog posts you know Like it's kind of nice to have that outlet But I remember Henry did kind of solidify that electronics

[00:15:35] And kind of realizing wow someone will pay me to do this Awesome and you know it's pretty lucky But in terms of my thoughts on say getting kids to be interested And I guess I mean I don't have kids at the moment

[00:15:48] So like I haven't really had to face this But I would agree that with the no pressure And just showing the options of what's available And letting them kind of discover their own path Is probably more empowering And like times are changing too

[00:16:05] Like I touched upon in the millennial post on ferridairef.com That you know we don't have to design and build computers nowadays You know some of us do like I mean Brent and I are more You know we went to school for it

[00:16:20] We could sit there and you know and design a Linux computer But on the other hand that's a lot of work And there's a lot of cheap Linux computers And like you know the raspberry pi and all You know any thing which you can think of

[00:16:34] Like someone has probably made a version of it for And that's a lot less work to do And you can focus on the goals you want to achieve So you know it's unlike you know say in the 1970s and 80s

[00:16:47] Where people had to kind of design their own computers And you have the computer clubs right In the Bay Area where Apple came out of and stuff Now you don't have like the project isn't like You know you're designing a computer to work

[00:17:02] That's kind of a solved problem Let's cobble these things together Motherboards and RAM and hard drives and OSes And let's do something interesting So it's a little I don't know if I want to say higher level But it's the tools available to us have drastically expanded

[00:17:21] Like we can go and design that really low level stuff And some of us should As young makers and electrical engineers We do have this amazing tool chest to pull out of With raspberry pies and you know Oshpark boards and 4 layers for 20 bucks Like Faraday's RF module right

[00:17:42] Which is I don't have to design a full on radio from scratch You know our chip does quite a bit of the modulation And we can move on to solve the other problems we aim to achieve

[00:17:56] So I think that's kind of a cool aspect where electronics is moving And you know our generation is probably going to be very skilled in Exactly now kind of going back for just a moment You're talking about your parents just kind of putting it out there

[00:18:12] And seeing if you're interested I'm all over that That's exactly how we try to do things here on the farm When you tore the rototiller down did you get in trouble Or was it like Man you did what? Did you put it back together and get it working?

[00:18:27] No I did not Although Cal I will say that I do remember being super young Maybe like 6 or 7 and we had this old Mac performer Or whatever the brand was in the early 90s And system 7 and I remember being fascinated by this programming stuff

[00:18:48] I didn't know what I was doing and I remember downloading this thing Like Hexedit thing and I was like I could change the message I didn't know what it was doing at all but I could change the hello message When it booted up and they did

[00:19:00] I'm like hey dad and every time it booted But every now and then I would mess something up And the whole computer wouldn't start And I remember some very angry like I gotta go fix this For my dad getting up the old Mac fix it disk and everything

[00:19:16] And re-installing the Mac like system 7 I remember it was like 40 floppy disks Yeah yeah so I think that was our version of it Yeah and Macs weren't cheap to break either back in those days

[00:19:29] I mean not that they're cheap today but I remember coming up we had a Commodore 128 And it was basically a glorified video game And yeah I remember some friends had Macs and you know parents would basically They're a car to buy Mac and that was

[00:19:45] Of course that was what 85678 so you guys were still You know maybe not even around by then but yeah they were very expensive back in the day But given your kids an opportunity whether you know like I am I'm not the electronics geek I enjoy technology

[00:20:02] But even then I have limits on really what I'm interested in And what I'm not interested in it doesn't mean that my kids have to like any of it It doesn't mean that they have to like all of it But just kind of putting it out there

[00:20:13] I think that when we just allow them the opportunity To find their cells wherever they want to do I've got three boys they're really big into motion pictures They like making film and it's really cool to see them

[00:20:28] Work out these things in their mind and be able to Take their idea storyboard it and then put something together You know it is what it is but they're having a good time And they're learning at the same time so it's neat to see how

[00:20:43] They can recognize you know what if we got the go kart running again We could use it to strap a camera on and have a chase scene So you know one of the winter projects this year Is to tear the go kart down and get it running again

[00:20:56] So just stuff like that Wait until they start building jumps Oh yeah Exactly So Cal I'd like to just add on to kind of Like maybe wrap it up that one of the things That I think Bryce and I have a little bit naturally

[00:21:14] Because we're twins that are very close And we grew up doing a lot of things together And it was amplified by the fact that Ham Radio We had a bunch of Ham Radio clubs in the area Growing up in the northeast that were really good

[00:21:26] And you know WB1 GOF of Westford Mass Was probably the one that we went to the most But there are other great ones in the areas that we went to But that sense of community really helped us And so I think having the maker scene

[00:21:45] Especially where even if you yourself are not That skilled electronics or don't really know how to give More than you know I think one of the most important things is Finding peers, you know the young potential To stem children Finding peers that can enjoy that with them

[00:22:10] And I think the maker scene and going to different Maker events or clubs that might have Peers of their age That will allow them to explore that Much more organically Where it doesn't feel like you know It's what you do with your parent Right

[00:22:31] For Bryson and I we had that naturally with each other Which helped Yeah I remember Yeah I remember when we first got licensed We were on curaz.com This was just like 2004 So you know curaz.com has changed drastically A bit at least in my opinion

[00:22:47] But I remember we were on the forums there And randomly one day Because your call signs have your address This Ham from I think the Michigan area Brent do you remember this He sent us a box of old radio like a two meter radio

[00:23:02] From his father who had recently passed away And just with a note going hey I have no use for this stuff It works, it's great, have fun Welcome to the hobby I remember that sense of community was just amazing That really helped

[00:23:16] Well let me ask you guys this Because you are so much younger than the large majority Of us here listening Of course we got some young guys and gals too But do you fear amateur radio cracks Amateur radio crashing and burning because The supposed lack of youth

[00:23:34] Or lack of involvement from young people in the hobby Not really I would say no See I don't either But go ahead At least my viewpoint on that is that It's really easy to be fearful Obviously in all aspects of the world right now

[00:23:50] There's a lot of emotions going on But fear is one of those things That you can look at the hobby and be like No kids here and you know this It's an older person hobby That's something we should just last on to

[00:24:03] It's really hard when you look at I make the point on a lot of my blog posts On ferdyrf that If you pit the internet against ham radio Ham radio loses every time The internet does What it does really well We're talking over the internet

[00:24:20] It is connecting us But let's look at ham radio Ham radio's really really Aventages Aspects are things like The last 10 miles right You get the last 500 feet from wi-fi But if you try to use wi-fi over a couple miles You have to have point to point in ten

[00:24:39] It gets really difficult But ham radio men The last 10 miles it's easy for us Or the last 3000 For some reason you're in the middle of nowhere And you know The internet as we all know Is not easy to get in very rural areas

[00:24:56] So there are aspects of it That I think if you look at it From what is the general population exposed to And what are kids interested into It's a hard sell And let alone things like As you're growing up in high school and college People wax and wane

[00:25:14] But getting them early is one thing I think where I always enjoyed seeing The youth activities in the late high school The college I'm always a little conflicted When I see a lot of effort into Recruitment of 10 year olds Which is fine but it's like

[00:25:37] They're probably going to get out of it In high school And there's this Massive opportunity for ham radio In the colleges People have moved away They're trying to find clubs they're interested in Pretty much the reason Brent and I are at SpaceX Is because of our activity

[00:25:55] In the radio club at RIT And we really put ourselves into that club And it enabled us to do a lot of these Really cool projects and gain this experience But I remember when we went to RIT We were really in ham radio

[00:26:09] But then there was that opportunity Of well the radio clubs here Let's take that and run Let's do something with it If we hadn't been there We probably would have much different lives right now But it allowed us at that crucial point in life

[00:26:23] To really take grasp of the hobby At least in the way that we wanted to Yeah I would agree And I like to add in that Although I'm not fearful for the hobby Going away because of the lack of Or perceived lack of youth involvement

[00:26:41] It is a generally older person's hobby When I say older I don't mean 50's and 60's and 70's and 80's Keep going up 150 Maybe 50 years from now We'll all be living that long What I mean is that Ham radio is expensive Right now it is expensive

[00:27:03] It is getting slightly cheaper But when you're a 10 year old You don't have your own income Other than maybe an allowance And When you do that Who do you talk to That can relate to you Unless you went in a club of other 10 year olds So it's

[00:27:23] When you're in college though End of high school and college though You start to form those social groups That are much more tight And for us The thing I notice about Ham radio clubs in high school And college that were driven By those students At the time

[00:27:43] Not driven by a faculty member Or someone else Those groups were focused At least in my experience On the social aspect first Of a club and the Radio side secondary Because it was still a club And what we found In our RIT club Was that

[00:28:05] We would meet as friends There were different subgroups We got along better than other groups But we turned it also into a project club That did projects to learn And to do cool things We had a repeater But we did a different form Of amateur radio than maybe

[00:28:23] The mainstream older adults did It was We didn't really Get on and do much HF Just chatting. Some people did Every now and then we did a few contests But it really wasn't a focus Of being a club and exploring This technology I think that's important to remember

[00:28:43] Because it shows that Amateur radio is much more Than just making context The radio club grew to over 20 people It was big for a ham radio club In college at least And it really structured Around good leadership And also not holding The club to say preconceived Activities

[00:29:09] It was let's just get together And have fun We would get together on the weekends I remember People thought we were crazy In the club. We want this To be a more fun experience So early on we were like Let's meet at 11am on Saturday Mornings

[00:29:29] This is college and you think Anyone is going to get up at 11am But if you're there enough People did It was also very open You and I would almost always arrive at 11 We'd be like we're going to be in the room Having an open meeting From 11 To 3

[00:29:49] And show up whenever We'd get people to show up at 1 But they'd show up and hang out for 2 hours Some people would show up at 11 And leave it 12 Because they had to do schoolwork And that kind of just Relaxed Aspect It really helped people feel welcomed

[00:30:09] And we also like Obviously right now we're really into projects But we had people Who wanted to do Public service While we weren't super out there Trying to do all the public service Anytime anyone in the club Organized with RARA The Rochester Amateur Radio Association

[00:30:29] An event with them We'd be like yeah take all the radios As long as you ask Because we were officers at the time We were trying to Focus the club At least on what most of the members wanted

[00:30:43] But when a small subset of the members wanted to say Go out and do emergency stuff We were totally up for it And I think Keeping that open mind to it Really helped that flourish Not holding people to A conceived notion of what Hemorrhade is

[00:30:59] Letting college students kind of explore And figure out what is Hemorrhade to them You know I think there's a lot of wisdom In that even for today's Modern or antiquated Amateur radio clubs all over the US Not everybody's going to want A piece of paper on their wall

[00:31:15] Not everybody's going to want To be a member of the league Not everybody's going to want to be in airries We've proven in Almost 90 episodes of this show We still haven't scratched the surface Of amateur radio yet But there's so much to do

[00:31:31] Just let people enjoy the hobby In the way they want to enjoy the hobby Whether they're teenagers, millennial college students Or grown-up old men Just have fun Yeah I mean fun is the reason you Do a hobby like none of us get paid for this It's like Obviously

[00:31:49] There are people who start companies And everything like that It's all for fun If it's not fun You probably shouldn't be doing it And when people tell you What to do on it That can be a turn off especially

[00:32:05] As a young college student who has all these other Opportunities available to them And someone sitting there saying Well you need to make these contacts Or if you don't know Morse code You're not a real ham I have all these other things that are pulling From my attention

[00:32:21] And I think it's really cool aspects of a hobby But if I can't do those Without doing say Morse code Then People lose interest quick Yeah I think it's Very very dangerous for the hobby To look at Different You look at some people that are doing

[00:32:41] Maybe more unique things in the ham radio That aren't this Like socially accepted normal And you see this a lot on the newer digital modes Or even things like what Bryce and I are doing With ferried rf And people look at it and go That's not ham radio

[00:32:57] And that's a very dangerous thing To get into Especially when There is a large majority Of people on the younger demographic Of ham radio exploring this It sets up a wall And That's a very dangerous thing for hobbies So although I'm not afraid of the hobby going away

[00:33:17] It is going to change whether people like it or not And the difference is Is if no one embraces it Is going to change very slowly And very small If we embrace it It's going to open a flood gate Of opportunity for everyone And expand the use

[00:33:35] Ham radio is fun It gets more fun when more people do it Oh yeah and like I touched on it In the millennial post I just had up that We're kind of on this verge of Forever becoming a retro activity Where you get on and enjoy the

[00:33:49] Retro aspects of it Morse code and Talking over voice over hf There's some modern aspects to that as well But in terms Of comparing it to the internet And cell phones It is kind of retro Or as Brent stated On this cusp of

[00:34:09] If we embrace what we really are And what we can be And what we were We could be Quite an interesting hobby You know and really catch People who wouldn't Necessarily consider it an interesting hobby In the past but are Absolutely fascinated with it because

[00:34:29] Of all those advantages of getting your license And what that offers you as someone Who wants to To say use it as say like a Medium and to do something with Nice and I will talk about that The next time we're together here

[00:34:51] Yeah and just like that I'm going to Stop and I'm going to make you wait till the next Time and sorry Well I mean it's Something I want to continue Sharing this with you But I don't want to just throw everything at you

[00:35:05] At the same time right so If you finish this one up you get to the end This is the end the next program We're going to continue talking to the brothers We're going to continue to learn about The exciting ideas they have To keep this hobby going forward

[00:35:19] As well as some of the products That they're bringing on to market Into market to help Further this thing that we know Is Ham Radio We'll be back next time with the brothers As we continue the conversation Fairday RF and more On the Ham Radio 360 podcast

[00:35:39] Thank you for listening You can find more online At Ham Radio 360 dot com 73