Ham Radio 360: Faraday RF – Open Source Digital Radio

[00:00:01] The following is a presentation of the Six Arrows Radio Network Well, welcome to the Ham Radio 360 podcast with your host K4 CDA K4 CDA Cale Nelson Hey, hey, hey It's cold man. I'm here in South Carolina. It's winter time. It feels

[00:00:32] cold everywhere else as well. This may not be winter when you're listening to the program, so let me officially welcome you into the Ham Radio 360 podcast. My name is Cale. I've been podcasting

[00:00:43] for a while about Ham Radio and invite you to check out our back catalog where we've got some pretty amazing stuff listed as well as the part one of this interview. Yeah, number 89 was

[00:00:57] part one with Bryce and Brent from Fairday RF. Hope you guys enjoyed that good look into the millennial mind of the Ham Radio operators who were following us into the hobby and looking

[00:01:09] to make not only a mark but helping to carry this thing forward into the 21st century and they're going ahead long so really excited about that. I don't want to talk too much because

[00:01:23] what is there to say other than I've got some great content following this intro? So again, welcome. You can learn more about this and more at ham radio 360.com. I like talking better than

[00:01:38] listening. You mean this isn't a video blog? No, sorry. That's the wrong guy. You're on the wrong show. Okay, guys, it's been fun so far and I've learned a lot from you both but I

[00:01:52] want to talk about I really want to learn from you now about your project. You guys are in space, not right now but you have a project that is currently orbiting the earth. I want to talk

[00:02:04] about that first and then I want to talk about what is Fairday RF and why is it as awesome as I think it is with my minimal understanding of it? But first tell me how two twin brothers

[00:02:17] became a part of something that's now in space because to me that's just freaking awesome. I guess I'll take it. The distinction there is we both actually have I guess we both have amateur and non-amateur equipment in space so it's kind of a gray line

[00:02:35] for us because we professionally work in aerospace and we have our circuit boards and stuff in space and orbit. One of my boards is in heliocentric orbit, it's like drilling the earth for another billion years or something which is kind of cool. I forget,

[00:02:50] Brent has a few out there too but that's obviously not with AMSAT, that's with SpaceX. But for the AMSAT stuff, that was volunteer work. It started prior to Fairday RF but it definitely intermingled the Fairday RF especially the flight version of the maximum

[00:03:10] PowerPoint tracker which is now flying on RADFX at AO91. That actually really mingled pretty hard core with Fairday RF because right when we were finishing that project up we were starting Fairday

[00:03:24] and we kind of had to do this tag team of working on Fairday and working on the MPPT which was an interesting way to start the whole project but it was a whirlwind of work

[00:03:36] to get something in space and yeah, space is hard. Space is you have to crash your teeth and dot your eyes that's for sure. You can't mess up. No, I mean there's no way to fix it.

[00:03:48] You're done. Well I'd like to add there that yeah, Brent and I we were always very interested in AMSAT and we listened to some satellite school over when we're in high school.

[00:04:01] I remember SOOT sat trying to listen to that with her dad as it when it was released, I guess late 2000s or such mid-2000s and never thought I'd be working in it and

[00:04:14] when we went to college, you know, we realized through our projects in the radio club that especially with the high altitude balloon that whoa like we can actually do this stuff and and it's fun and it's a really grabbed my interest. I think and I think Bryce agrees

[00:04:27] to this. My interest in electronics is not as much into like cool projects as much as it is to work on something that is larger than than just myself and it it work on something that is very

[00:04:43] yeah, that is very um it may not be the best radio or the best MPPT or such but it is something that is is like a remote electronics thing that really interests me. It's designed for a specific

[00:04:56] purpose. Yeah like Faraday is designed for a specific purpose, not necessarily the to be the best you know all around highest speed highest power radio. It's just as the MPPT is not the most efficient or the lowest sports base MPPT. It's designed for very specific reason on

[00:05:14] if I am sat in yeah those types of projects end up oftentimes being finished when you kind of constrain as well. Yeah so I'd like to finish there that when Bryce and I had our

[00:05:31] internship at SpaceX at the end of our of our college days that we came back from that and I remember our dad came out to Los Angeles to drive back with us because we had driven to space

[00:05:44] to Los Angeles and we're driving back and we took the path up up relatively north and we went through the Dayton hamvention and we were like okay this is our time to go to Dayton and break for

[00:05:56] the first time so we did and we were going around 2012 and we ended up meeting Tony Tony a month a tx from Amsat he's that he was the head of engineering at the time he's now

[00:06:10] he's not passed away but it started off this this great conversation where we wanted to be more involved in and they gave us a project at first which was which was was was hey we want

[00:06:24] you to build this little piece of test gear it was an active load so basically it's like a variable constant current resistor for the for the if you can think about it that way so that you can

[00:06:35] simulate you know a satellite or simulate a solar panel you can use it in different ways to do these things and and we we we built one you can buy these commercially but really what they were

[00:06:46] doing is they were I think kind of figuring out who we were and also giving us a a project to say here's a project that you can start that's that's that not it's not critical but it'll help us

[00:06:59] it also you know it was a skills building thing and I think that was that was really cool I'm not sure if that's something they normally do but it it was great to be to feel like we were part of

[00:07:09] that yeah of that community and it also gave us gave us some experience we'd finished that and um after finishing that that that that project we then went uh we were going into our

[00:07:23] interest into our final year of of college and we needed a senior design project and we and we decided hey Tony we want to we want to build we want to build something for you

[00:07:33] for our senior design and it turned out that they needed a maximum power point tracker to maximize the the power from the solar panels for their three u-cube sets and up

[00:07:43] um so we decided to take it on and we had a few of our friends from the radio club at our at that were also graduating with us join our team we put the whole project together had an amazing group of

[00:07:54] of teammates and and advisors and um yeah we didn't know what we were jumping into we were working like 40 hour weeks every week it was a lot of work no we had never yeah we had I mean we had

[00:08:06] never built an mpbt we didn't know anything about really power systems we just knew we could learn it and that's one of the things that like the internship its basics really taught us was uh

[00:08:15] confidence goes a long way like I know a lot of people like will like confuse like confidence in ego like it's not that like you know everything it's just like you know what if I put my mind to

[00:08:27] it I will probably figure out and I'm not afraid to ask how to do something like that learning is amazing and that allows you to to really accomplish some cool things and

[00:08:39] learn stuff like it took I remember oh man like the the group at RIT I mean we're all I mean I'm so proud of that team but we were sitting there at like two in the morning like some December cold

[00:08:51] Rochester I mean Rochester is always cold but like some like some like really cold night I mean we were kind of known as that team that was just always in the lab and um that's why we chose

[00:09:01] that like that's why we work with Dan and Ian on the project was like we knew that they would they would be committed to it just like us and uh we're banging our heads like how does this MPPT

[00:09:11] work because it's so weird if you if you look at um the best way to describe an MPPT is when you know how a voltage regulator works you know you're regulating the output voltage you know you have

[00:09:22] random you know random but you have variable input voltage and you kind of have a rock solid output voltage well MPPT is kind of the other way around it's you're modulating the input

[00:09:32] which is really really funky like to think about like well how do I change the input if I put like five volts in uh what's changing that and like the reality is that solar panels are somewhat high

[00:09:43] impedance so as you pull current from them the voltage drops so that's how this whole process gets started and remember it just clicked for us we're all sitting there like two in the morning

[00:09:52] dead tired like stumped we just we needed to figure this out and then it was really cool then when we just suddenly realized oh like that happens when when when you're when we realized the

[00:10:05] the input impedance and like an MPPT is essentially just it's like it's basically a tuner like it's almost like an antenna tuner but for power you're you're matching impedances the the input of a

[00:10:17] high power radio is relatively low impedance and the output of the solar panel it's kind of high impedance uh so you're you're matching them to provide that maximum power transfer um

[00:10:27] and it was like the hallelujah chorus started and you had it yeah well like I mean we still had a lot of work left but um there was a fundamental roadblock of like wait how does this thing like

[00:10:37] how do we look at even accomplishing this right um and um we still had tons of work on even how to how to implement it in hardware um and that was but that was a cool moment I remember

[00:10:49] and that was nothing to me that was kind of the epitome of we didn't really know what we were doing when we went into it but we all like knew that we would work for it and we all knew that

[00:10:58] we would we would give it a shot and uh it was really cool to have that payoff and uh ansat trusted us with that which is cool I mean they put us on a furrow I mean the original

[00:11:08] satellite we were working on has has not even been built yet um believe it or not but um you know it did give them this I this uh intellectual property essentially of

[00:11:19] of an mpbt um if you'd like we can go more into like the design of it and how it works I'm not sure what where you want to go with that well you know I'm just curious um

[00:11:28] I mean you said they were it the other project they gave you was commercially available this was not in the form factor I guess that you needed it for actually is it is it is so so it

[00:11:40] I guess you have to be careful with the commercially available so um we implemented an analog computer essentially like it is literally the mpbt on radfx that is an analog computer it is using op amps uh to compute uh y equals negative mx plus b

[00:11:58] it's literally doing a math equation um and that allows us to predict the voltage now that's not the best way to do mpbt um the most widely used way is what's called perturbed and observed so you

[00:12:10] essentially change the voltage of the solar panel then you multiply your measured current and your your panel voltage to get power and then you say did the power increase if it did you move in the same

[00:12:21] direction if it went down you move in the opposite direction so you perturb it you change it and then you observe what is the power and then so you do you essentially climb the hill of power

[00:12:30] until you get to the top and then you stay there as the mpbt uh as the maximum power point changes you change with it uh so one of the huge advantages of that method is you uh you don't need

[00:12:44] to know what the solar panel is that you hooked up to it can be any solar panel um the method we chose is you have to get the exact solar panel right like we just like our mpbt will only work

[00:12:57] with two like two series uh uh special lab utj solar cells like it is designed for it and you know the fun the funniest part i always joke about is if you can't guarantee on a satellite

[00:13:12] what your solar panels are like you have other problems because you know you got an acquisition issue there yeah exactly so um but the reason we did that was because of radiation so when you

[00:13:24] when you're doing perturb and observe you have state so this is a thing in in the space world where when you hold state in my control like if i multiply um current times voltage measurements i have in

[00:13:36] memory somewhere an equation right that's in in programming uh in in bits that is telling these two values that i've measured to get multiplied and then uh the result is also stored in some part

[00:13:50] of memory now you could have a cosmic ray or some private radiation come by and flip a zero to a one or one to a zero it caused something and then you're done like mission over it's it's end game and uh

[00:14:04] oftentimes or you get weird operation um and to use systems like this in orbit you you have to be really tricky like you have to have like say three versions of your software in three different

[00:14:17] physical parts of memory and then like always check between them and you know whatever if one of the three disagrees you then like rewrite that entire one with all the other two's copy right

[00:14:27] two out of three vote for what is the firmware i should have okay that that's really hard to do like it's it's a lot of work and that's like a whole project in and of itself beyond mpbt but

[00:14:38] if you look at what we did it's it's an analog computer like you can't there's no programming in it it is hardwired to do this one math equation that predicts the where the voltage should be based

[00:14:49] on temperature and um it is operating basically as fast as the op-amp so we'll allow it to operate and no bit flip will ever change that i mean the satellite will basically have to uh get a total

[00:15:02] i um was a total ionospheric dose tid enough basic ionizing does is to to basically take down the whole satellite before it dies like it's it's a very robust way of doing it so you can buy

[00:15:15] the perturb and observe you know ones on the market for cubesats because most cubesat missions are like six months where the the likelihood of getting a uh a radiation event is pretty low

[00:15:28] whereas mset wants this thing to operate for at least five years and then if they're on like a you know they go anywhere between like 10 and 20 year orbits depending on the launch

[00:15:39] and you really want to get 10 or 20 years out of it if you can and that's really hard to do without some really tricky radio radiation tolerant design so i mean really this is

[00:15:51] kill's way of understanding what you just said there's lots of ways to do it on the cheap but if you want it to really last you almost have to go back in time to do things the old way

[00:16:02] instead of depending on like you said the digital technology the analog technology is what you're using switches and transistors and hard programming versus bits and dashes and dots that change according to the temperature or whatever you've you've put the values in here and this

[00:16:20] is what they are kind of a thing yeah i mean it's it depends right so like am sets the volunteer organization and you know one of the hard parts about a volunteer

[00:16:28] organization is that people come and go like as as brand i know from from from from even even work like the designing the circuit or designing the solution it is fun but getting it to orbit

[00:16:41] like getting all your your tees crafts in your eyes dotted so where when it is on a vehicle sitting on the launch pad and you know of you know tens or hundreds of millions of dollars

[00:16:52] you know for that launch and you know it's going to work like you're sure of it that is painful like getting something there is is kind of painful it takes a lot of work and to do that with say

[00:17:05] digital circuits takes takes a real lot of time and the amount of effort that would be necessary to go into doing that would require quite a few people to to work for a while on on implementing

[00:17:18] say a computer system like that whereas if you have people who understand say some basically op amp technology and in the power conversion technology you could say take this analog method

[00:17:30] of doing it and and you don't need that team of programmers and that team of of of software developers right you can get that done with a much smaller team and it's also really scalable so

[00:17:43] there's a few components on the design you change out and you know the thing could do like 50 watts so I mean it's pros and cons like honestly if we had had more people to kind of work

[00:17:54] on them in more time to work on that project and our goal was to develop like the most efficient one we probably would have done perturb and observe with digital electronics but that wasn't the actual

[00:18:05] goal of it so I love it yeah I mean that's really cool because it's almost like going back and using what it took to get us to the moon versus what you know is technology super readily

[00:18:18] available day what people think maybe how people think that it should be done or is done maybe not be because there are other ways to do it and it doesn't have to be the latest and greatest it

[00:18:29] has to be what works and has gone to work and has been proven to work without any hiccups well yeah yeah I'll add Ellen that although that's that's that's that's like mostly there what the analog method allows us to do is is also to fail gracefully where

[00:18:49] where exactly oh these are things you think about in the space world yep so so with a microcontroller like you can you can test it in a radiation beam you know there's data online NASA has an online

[00:19:00] database you can just go in and Google and and other universities have done this you can go and put these electronics in in a radiation beam and get like a get like an idea of how this will react

[00:19:11] with the certain amount of radiation dose and with with microcontrollers some of them last oh a lot of them don't last that much at all some of them like the msp430 like like the type that we use in Faraday actually actually lasted decent decent a while within radiation

[00:19:27] but the problem is that it's all probability and if something flips you're probably just done you have to reset or handle it grace hand handle it like with a reset or it might just kill it out

[00:19:38] right but it's more of a um either or whereas with um with with like more more analog electronics that are that are stateless what you get is you get things that parameters like on a data

[00:19:48] sheet they'll shift over time uh so it's a little bit more predictable um so that was so with the stateless design and we were using we limited our component components that we used to ones that had testing data that said this will last to at least 30 000 rad radiation

[00:20:06] over the course of life which is about what the orbit was both five years in the life of it and now the likelihood of getting that radiation dose is pretty low but it was the upper limit

[00:20:15] of it so so it's likely gonna last a lot longer the other thing is that it's it's it's it's there's there's the design it's fairly robust and you can scale it but also people

[00:20:29] can look at it and go okay like like if you know power supply design and other analog electronics you can go and figure out this mppt kind of going back to one of our prior comments was that um

[00:20:41] one of the things that is missed a lot within side of um electronics itself or even ham radio is that it's really easy to focus on how to make something the best it's really easy to go and say

[00:20:51] oh this this why isn't this you know this this this this really great s dr or this radios um you know noise rejection uh the thing that's really hard to do is look at the big picture why are you

[00:21:04] doing this what are you trying to solve and how do you do the minimal minimal amount with the things you have at hand to do it and you might make the wrong decision at first or you might

[00:21:15] make the right decision but the the point is is that within anything that you're engineering is to see the big picture what also gives you time right like if we had focused on um building

[00:21:27] the best mppt um ever we don't really need it and the goal was to get it on the vehicle and get it into orbit um for a launch deadline right like you same thing for people working on

[00:21:42] like um some of the best s drs and stuff like that is if you spend years working on this one thing then maybe technology walks by you in other areas uh i guess if that makes sense oh yeah yeah and i

[00:21:55] think i've learned a couple of things here is that our friends who are participating in amsat and chasing satellites with their ht's and era yaggy antennas they probably don't think

[00:22:06] a whole lot about what you guys did and what you created to get this thing so that they can talk back and forth on it number one and i think the second point i've gotten here from you guys

[00:22:18] is as we move toward ferridae rf i think i realize now the reasoning behind what you did and how you did and why you did things there versus maybe conventional wisdom and um i'm guessing we can

[00:22:31] kind of go that direction towards ferridae rf uh but but there may be some comments that you have for our friends at amsat who are enjoying the birds out there uh and you guys have you know

[00:22:41] pieces of tech on their flat around absolutely uh so yeah first off i think you're probably you're probably hitting the nail in the head with um reasoning behind ferridae um yeah i think brent

[00:22:53] would agree on that uh but yeah first off on on amsat um i'll touch upon the engineering there is a small army of amsat engineers and brent and i are just two of them um and

[00:23:04] it's it's incredible because there's you know people come and go and you know brent and i have coming on we've definitely backed off a bit to do ferridae um you know we work a lot with with jerry

[00:23:13] n zero j y uh jerry buxton uh who's the amsat vp of engineering and uh but there's a small army of people working on it that uh most of the time you never hear about or you don't realize

[00:23:27] they're not they're generally not the ones you hear on the satellites a lot of us just we get kicks out of like enabling people to operate on them like like i i have yet to actually talk on a

[00:23:38] o 91 i mean i don't really have the radio set up for it's kind of hard in l.a to do that but um i get kicks out of here and how much people enjoy working it and and and that to me is that's what i love

[00:23:50] about ham radio is enabling other people to have fun and enjoy things and and put a smile on their face essentially i don't know if brent has anything more on that yeah no i i think i think he

[00:24:01] hit the nail in the head there brice and um it's it's really amazing what the what the organization does they're always looking for more help uh it's a great avenue i mean it is amazing this is literally

[00:24:14] i don't know if there is another but it is the only that i know about organization that you can volunteer technical or non-technical um not in the space industry you know very um

[00:24:25] and get something of yours in the space or help achieve that um without being in a university and or in the aerospace industry uh and yeah i think it also goes to one of the points that

[00:24:36] brice and i have made on some of our more recent blog posts on on on ferrityrf.com which is that that amsa is a great example of how amateur radio is not just about the radio and it's it's

[00:24:51] about the whole community the systems uh where how can you use radio or apply radios for the amateur radio culture in different ways um because the radio circuitry on a091 is one of several circuit boards that do different things there are solar panels the maximum power point tracker

[00:25:13] there's a computer there's an experimental board um there's there's the radio battery board yep whole battery board uh there's the mechanical structure of it so there's mechanical engineering design in it they have to do logistics they have to do all this coordination oh man the

[00:25:29] amount of testing to get something even bolted to the side of a rocket yeah is ridiculous you know oh my oh man i mean i professionally am with amsa it's just like the amount of testing isn't

[00:25:39] so yeah yeah you'll literally take these things and whether you're doing engineering testing or you know proving the uh the uh flight unit you know you're taking it and putting it inside of a thermal chamber where you're bringing it to really really cool temperatures and really

[00:25:51] really hot temperatures just doing it for days or you're taking it on and putting on this this basically giant speaker that will shake very heavy things to uh you know thousands of hertz

[00:26:03] of of vibration uh energy and you're going to shake and simulate where the rocket launch will do and you know you're taking this little cube set and putting on someone has to go and design

[00:26:12] that test has to go bring it there which is usually Jerry and you know some other people and and go do this so it's amazing that yeah um some of us operate on on on on a91 but a lot

[00:26:23] of us get enjoyment out of building it and out of seeing people use it and i've heard it go over and it's amazing to hear it go over um but i don't have a huge drive to actually use it because

[00:26:35] i feel that my place on it was helping build it and i'll eventually use it and it's fun but i enjoy seeing other people get there use it in in in in how they want to use it

[00:26:50] kind of like Walt Disney building Disney world for people to enjoy and Walt probably had a great time enjoying Disneyland or Disney World but he had as much fun seeing the kids come in the gate

[00:27:00] and and jumping on the log ride or whatever that fulfilled him he didn't have to go and do it himself yeah yeah this sounds right imagine that's similar okay actually it reminds me of when we're talking

[00:27:12] about like vibration testing and like you know shaking the satellite um there's something that most people don't realize about rockets and uh which is kind of cool when you um when sorry i've been talking in the background uh when you um when you when you launch

[00:27:27] actually one of the hardest parts and most vibration and shaking part to the ride is like the first couple seconds and that's because you have these massive rocket engines that are you know

[00:27:36] blowing you know thousands upon thousands of pounds of fuel out per second uh of the engines and all of that acoustic and you hear that rumble in the distance well only like a couple hundred

[00:27:48] feet away is the ground which reflects all of it it comes right back up and then couples right into the entire rocket and shakes the rocket really hard and then once you get far

[00:27:58] enough away from the rock from the ground those reflections don't hit you anymore and things calm down but yeah that those first couple seconds are like some of the most violent parts of a ride

[00:28:09] to space i did the uh did the atlantis thing at uh kennedy back almost a year ago now and uh the simulator that they say simulates it as close as they can simulate it without killing

[00:28:22] you and or being real and uh they lean you back and i think that that my cheeks right below my eye the the cheek the skin over my cheekbone there was back around my ear uh during that that shaking and

[00:28:39] the audio it was just a craze it was crazy i was like my face is distorted and i'm not but it felt like i was moving but i wasn't moving but i get what you're saying and even even there

[00:28:49] they were talking about how if you stand if you were to try to stand so close um to the actual pad whether it was space x or the other rockets that they launched down there uh just the sound the

[00:29:04] the force the energy of the sound would kill you oh yeah absolutely my kids were saying that is that drum like hey yeah it'll kill you it'll kill you quick but it's loud it was amazing all right

[00:29:15] yeah so i mean that is any any rocket yeah yeah and and there they are and it's just amazing technology and and you guys are part of it which is really cool amsat i have yet i'm i'm yet to try

[00:29:28] amsat but you should you should get jerry get you should get jerry buxon on the radio here yeah we've talked to um do that we've talked to andrew uh his last name just left me uh glass

[00:29:40] glass breeder yes glass breeder yes um and that it was a crazy call there was a hurricane coming on on shore and you could hear the rain in the background during the whole call it was like

[00:29:52] so yeah that was living in florida but but it's some really cool stuff i need to i need to kind of fool with it more or i think my kids really get a kick out of it once especially they hear this

[00:30:02] but as we were talking a few minutes ago and talking about building basically a redundant system to survive that doesn't require this digital technology when i was reading the ferridae rf website and you sent me the links that said try that read this first read this second because

[00:30:16] i was trying to get my head around what are these guys doing because it looks and sounds really cool but if you're not an electrical engineer or not on that level i was left scratching my head

[00:30:26] what i loved about what you what you guys wrote what one of the things that really caught my eye was this is not an sdr now that not that doesn't say that i don't like sdr

[00:30:35] because i've got some and they're fun i think they're really cool technology but what in the world is ferridae rf and then what are you guys making underneath that banner uh brice did you want to

[00:30:48] take it you want me to take it sure um always always always answer the the first part of um of ferridae rf is obviously the company that brett and i have started and our first radio is

[00:31:02] ferridae and as you stated it's not an sdr and there's nothing we have nothing against sdrs it is actually it's a hardwood fine radio we used a cc 430 radio which is a nice texas instruments chip that does about 500 kilobot data rate you know uses um several various

[00:31:22] modulation schemes in it the one that we use the most is is two fsk but i think building upon what we you know profess with say amps at work and in just our view on engineering in general is

[00:31:37] is you really want to figure out what should i be building like what is my goal and the reason we really emphasize this is not an sdr is because if we had built an sdr

[00:31:50] that we're focusing on the wrong problem like brett and i are very passionate about the fact that ham radio needs better applications like we need to we need to not the focus of it isn't

[00:32:01] necessarily building the radio it's doing stuff with it and that's where ferridae comes in we focused on uh building software and building an infrastructure that uh lets us do stuff with it as opposed to spending all this time trying to design a new modulation scheme right like um

[00:32:21] like i really enjoy the the codec 2 project right it's really neat um uh the call signs for escaping me of who's working on that uh but uh it's great that they're fitting like the the audio

[00:32:35] down into a really tiny uh bandwidth i think they're down to 700 bits per second or something but um they've that's taken a long time to do and if that's that's the goal of the project

[00:32:46] that's awesome but um like from our aspect um we don't want like the lowest bandwidth possible we want to use the bandwidth we have and do interesting things with it if that makes sense

[00:32:58] i don't know if brett has a better way of saying it but uh yeah kind of a high level view of that yeah that was a great overview uh uh brice and um the so we are our view with ferridae is that

[00:33:14] the largest problem to the future of ham radio is how do you use ham radio in the 21st century and uh it's obviously digital and uh making the best software defined radio uh or making a

[00:33:31] software defined radio doesn't necessarily solve that problem but it's how do we use it and um like for example with ferridae we have 500 kilobits per second of of of possible speed where there's no reason to spend time on using codec 2 for us uh infinite 700 bot you just take

[00:33:49] open source libraries online that you can download in you know in a minute and have you know have digital audio if you'd want to do that uh and send it through data at the end of the day data is

[00:34:03] data digital audio is data with voice encoded in it it's still data and so the point that ferridae is really pushing ahead is how do we use data within ham radio uh where it's not just an

[00:34:17] aprs style messaging or information system and it's not just replacing the internet and um to your point kale there our website does have a lot of information it's it's at this point i think a

[00:34:30] little bit outdated we're going to go back and um simplify it a lot more and clarify especially for those who aren't as um knowledgeable about like the technical back end uh but i'll give an i'll give

[00:34:42] an example of where ferridae really fits in and shows where we want to bring ham radio ham radio um ferridae itself is a digital radio that you can use as a as its own little computer and like

[00:34:55] smart node kind of like an aprs tracker now we've actually flown ferridae on a high altitude balloon over the sequoias uh in california here to about 30 000 feet there's a bunch of party city

[00:35:06] balloons uh it was it was a very quick very very quick way to do it i'm seeing the r&d one was much better yeah it was very much like that is it is a gladware container from our kitchen things

[00:35:18] like that but uh it's it it worked and um but it's also i've also transferred files over it from radio to radio we're right now working on a lot of software and actually going into our

[00:35:30] current direction of making it very simple to use and very uh very expandable uh i think that's maybe better for another talk but um one of the applications that is unique to ham radio that

[00:35:45] other internet hardware and uses don't provide are things like um are things like the last 10 miles and you could go in addition to that things like the lay tolerant networks which

[00:35:58] for those of you who don't know what that is are things like um how do i transfer information between two stations or two or two units um when they don't have connection all the time so for example if i'm

[00:36:12] and the example i give is ham radio fits fits the bill for like if i'm hiking or backpacking out in the mountains um or lay and say i'm just doing a cross country drive and i'm in the middle of

[00:36:25] the desert and have no ap russ signal um it it's really unfortunate when you're driving and ap russ gives out and then it just pops back in later on and you have this whole chunk that's missing

[00:36:35] with delay tolerant networks which is a software application of radio hardware uh you can do things like like i can be in the middle of the mountains i can want to send information data whatever i want

[00:36:50] um to other ham radio operators or or wherever i want to send it and i can get it ready to send but i may not have a connection to anyone but someone comes down the road you know in the back

[00:37:02] country um they make connection with me they have a fair day radio or just a ham radio in general that has this capability um and we make that connection says hey i'm driving and hey i want

[00:37:13] to send this data let me take the information that you have stored in my in my car in the radio in my car and when it drives into a city it downlinks the data and it gets out into the information

[00:37:23] in into the world on the reverse side everyone now knows where you were it hiking uh uh and because you know at least from fair day we have a gps on board so it can say well i want the

[00:37:35] return data on the back end to be loaded onto other people or cars that might be in the area in the future or they might be heading that way might be heading that way

[00:37:46] and when when they make connection with me again maybe this is hours later we make the connection go oh hey here's your data maybe i sent email or i want email back or or whatnot um and that that's

[00:37:58] that's a form of delayed tolerant communication um or like still went forward there was actually um there was actually uh amsat satellites uh or just amateur radio satellites in general that used to

[00:38:08] have similar versions of technology it's the old pack sat back in the 90s um and there were stories of people being in the middle of the um sarah desert um sending emails and and and

[00:38:20] communicating within within you know these really remote places uh by waiting for satellite passes and they would wait you know half a day to get to get uh replies now that's just one application

[00:38:34] of it um but it is an example of where when you boil down the the ham radio versus the internet you will lose every time except in these places and when you look at uh when you look at

[00:38:47] applications well okay how can we apply ham radio and do fun things with it so that is a back country use of it um and it's fine kind of like an aps use of it or and get in general data but

[00:38:59] then how will contesting change because we have automated systems because now you no longer just have text to text keyboard digital mode now it is now we know your gps location we can make a verify

[00:39:12] connection because one of the things in ham reader that's holding us back is the is the use of encryption or the lack of use of encryption in authentication i agree that encryption is probably not uh

[00:39:24] applicable to ham radio but if we can authenticate over ham radio and and do that legally then if i make a contact with you over digital radio we can verify very accurately that we are who we

[00:39:39] say we are and we can verify instantly that that happened um so how will how will ham radio change based on these new available abilities and we're talking ham radio for the 22nd century

[00:39:55] should we go that far i mean compared i mean you know you look at say like arden the amateur radio emergency data network i might have said that wrong um and i you know i think i might

[00:40:06] have got right anyway to me that's like packet for the 21st century and and it's utilizing you know microwave versus the the old uh the old packet nodes on two meters this this may not be that

[00:40:21] but it it feels like it's kind of another progressive step in what's available with our with our limits that were given with the fcc with our license as amateur radio operators well look at when you look at like arden or the amateur radio emergency data network right it

[00:40:39] was designed for a specific purpose and that's our emergency communications and they utilize to my knowledge they utilize um you know off the shelf um like wi-fi style hardware i think ubiquity bullets and stuff like that um which is fine but it's one of the points

[00:40:54] that we made earlier uh where um that's great for generally the last couple hundred feet if you want to go further which you can with er with the uh that network you have to start

[00:41:07] using point-to-point or you have um one station has an omni antenna and the other one has like a a parabolic dish right and you have to have a line of sight right um it gets really tricky

[00:41:19] to to use that in general if i'm just driving down the road i'm not going to want to have a rotating like a rotator that's like pointing in a certain direction on my car you know like it gets

[00:41:28] really tricky so it is essentially a ham radio version of say the internet you know you're doing ethernet and um it's great it is really useful in emergency situations when you can go set up

[00:41:43] a like a base station and enable communications um and i mean i think it's a really really cool project um i wonder if uh future technology will will start to encroach in that because you you do

[00:41:56] see some of these commercial um as well as oh uh as uh i guess jeet um what's the what's the non government part uh use as i didn't expect that uh you see these these non-governmental people

[00:42:11] like using satellites free of charge right to in in developing countries or emergency situations which is becoming more commonplace so i don't know if that is going to be an issue in the

[00:42:22] future for actual use cases of this stuff but um you know we have friends who you know did the hamnet you know and was it broadband ham net uh stuff and they they they pinged the router at the other

[00:42:35] end of it and then said what do i do now like why not just use the internet which is a valid point it's it's like okay well you have this set up and it's essentially um a mesh network of

[00:42:46] you know of the internet which um you're then you spent all this time building this network but then no one really knows what to do within the end um uh when when you when you just focus

[00:42:59] on building the network which is why when when brent and i have started and continue to work on feride uh it's the focus is is very intently on applications what are we doing with it and

[00:43:11] yes we're we eventually want a an infrastructure a network but we need to make sure that the entire time we have some some clear intended applications of this and yeah so i'll add this one comment of

[00:43:25] of the feride is all is is also looking to be an educational resource within the hobby and that's one reason we did open source like it literally you can go on our our github account

[00:43:40] and get all of the firmware the software the hardware files to make your own circuit board it is completely open sourced and the reason for that um among other focuses where we want to have

[00:43:52] smaller projects where we you can see how we design the software the hardware because we want we want ham radio to also remain the go-to hobby even within digital technology of here's

[00:44:04] how you design and apply this technology um in bite-sized chunks and not just hey go buy this wi-fi router because like i i would i would seriously question if there are any people within

[00:44:17] sort of like the ham net robin net who are building their own routers and um that's i know that's not the point of it but we're locking ourselves into this commercial technology where

[00:44:28] if we look back at like well what problems can we also solve from an engineering side and make it simple and use ham radio in all these different ways especially the last 10 miles that

[00:44:38] we're looking for at this point um there's a lot of cool engineering things that happen within circuits like ferridae uh itself so i've got uh i've got the rural problem down here there's there's nothing internet wise there's no network anything happening i've got art

[00:44:59] in nodes connected my house to the barn but i've still yet to get the internet connected to those but i do have two two ends talking to one another um but as i look at your project

[00:45:10] the i get what you're saying about the backcountry and and taking traffic with you when you pass and whatnot uh what are some other applications for that in addition to learning the technology with the open source educational background but if i'm a ham in 2017 2018 looking to

[00:45:28] to further experiment locally what can i do with the ferridae rf radio boards yeah uh well one of the things to remember is that this is a growing project right so we are still defining certain aspects of that um we built the hardware and we provide the

[00:45:45] hardware on on our website like i mean it's open source anyone can actually build just like order their own boards and build it um but you know manufacturing hardware is actually

[00:45:54] kind of tricky um so so we do it professionally uh and therefore like we don't mind um providing this so people don't have to do that um and the main some of the main thrusts of the project are

[00:46:07] software uh and actually defining those those use cases um so the the lay tolerant networks is certainly one of the big ones we're looking at um there's certainly i mean there's there's

[00:46:20] you know this is more of a wishful thinking at the moment like like it's also like far down the road but like the idea of putting this technology on satellite is really interesting um and uh also

[00:46:33] we're kind of hardware agnostic so um the ferridae project is is more of like an ideology um it is it is meant to be educational it's meant to to um to provide access to say

[00:46:48] networks or infrastructure that is not really tied to certain frequencies so the idea of um in the future coming out with lower bandwidth but you know lower frequency uh hardware that just plugs right into that that that whole network is is actually pretty it's pretty clear to

[00:47:08] how to get there um and that that can be a powerful thing for people looking for if they want to build a project that can plug into it a new infrastructure or or um bring the hobby forward

[00:47:23] there's something there there's like there's these there's these little hanging fruit of hey this is on 33 centimeters i want to do a radio but i don't want to do it on 33 centimeters

[00:47:34] i want to do it on this frequency or that frequency uh that's kind of a cool outlet from an educational standpoint at least a project standpoint and i know um Brent Brent

[00:47:42] has done a lot of thinking about this as well so i'll let him take it uh yeah and to to to clarify some of the educational side we are still growing and and we've actually gone on to a onto a new

[00:47:54] sort of push on our side we finished and as you can see in the website and and and blog post we've we've done a lot on the telemetry side and making this initial push of like interrogating integrating into the apres network um but we've actually

[00:48:10] gone on to a more clear and simplified side that focuses on education where we are making ferridae look like simply a network card in your computer and it uses uh um it uses simple software interfaces uh and programming like python which is pretty easy to learn

[00:48:31] and where the education comes in with that is is if you take a a experimenter or hand radio experimenter and say okay well if i how would i make a digital ham radio and what would i do with it

[00:48:45] um we plop down this radio hardware what we're showing in in an open source and also in clear small projects and small modules um what we're showing is okay you have this hardware

[00:48:56] that has this interface to your usb port you can take and make these these software interfaces that allow you to connect to your radio or any radio like they you as long as you have

[00:49:10] uh a digital radio front end you know if you have a software defined radio and you your usb takes in characters or bytes and it sends out radio transmissions there's no difference so the

[00:49:23] building blocks are the same and um then you can take these python modules and say okay well i want to make this network interface card using this software technology i can then make these applications to do to connect to delayed tolerant networks or send out telemetry

[00:49:43] or to connect to another person and download a file um and um those are some of the educational abilities uh educational abilities that that are enabled now i i think it's it's in that

[00:49:57] way you can look at ferridae as sort of a platform for a ham radio uh where i hate to use this terminology but like if you were to think of like arduino and what that did for uh for for electronics in general

[00:50:13] it allowed it allowed people to take bite-sized chunks of projects and do those projects really quickly and learn along the way and that's what our initial goal for for ferridae from an

[00:50:25] educational point is is to break down these barriers for ham radio and say let's give you the platform and give you the ideas of how you can apply these platforms within radio and as the

[00:50:39] community grows and it is definitely growing um you will have more things to do and more ways to experiment whether you want to just get on and transfer files or talk to someone you know

[00:50:52] across the country or across your town uh or whether you want to experiment and say well how fast can i make this happen um you know there are interesting things like like like you can use multiple you could use multiple ferridae together put them on separate frequencies

[00:51:08] and how different stations hop between ferridae and you could support multiple people um on one repeater site that's pretty cool so there's just it's really the foundation of potential unlimited potentially projects regarding ham radio communications digital voice digital data

[00:51:34] a combination thereof as simple as you want to make it by point to point or it could be as broad as you could afford to build it yeah it's it's important to remember that ferridae rf is

[00:51:47] we kind of tend to look at it as a like an educational company right it is kind of our main point of how we kind of view ourselves that we provide hardware but we don't really

[00:52:00] want to necessarily only do that like we want to build a a new not a new version but we want to we want to enable our view of what ham radio could be and that's by providing the hardware

[00:52:17] we do that and then also by working on this software uh that goes with it we are helping show people uh and we're in learning ourselves i've learned a ton doing this um how we should

[00:52:29] view the hobby right um i always i always like to look at how ferridae right now goes on aprs which aprs is a cool system but um when you look at a ferridae radio it looks like any other aprs

[00:52:46] radio it you don't know it's on 33 centimeters and that's because i just it just interfaces over python with some sockets um that when a radio here is another station it takes it it takes

[00:52:56] the packet and basically sends it into the aprs network and puts it on there like it's just it's software like making uh making these steps and building these systems to be interoperable

[00:53:09] is really a software problem um uh brand nile you know one of the things that we we often will we'll talk about too is the whole idea of uh non-interoperability right like people often

[00:53:21] will complain you know d star and d m r or uh system fusion these things don't talk to each other um i mean yes there's the technical aspects of different modulations different schemes like that

[00:53:31] and this i'm sure there's political aspects to it too people don't want these networks to be combined but like there's really no reason why we can't build something that allows other

[00:53:43] other projects to talk to like uh i would love like we use two fsk right now it's a form of gmsk it basically the same modulation that um a similar modulation to how d star works it's

[00:53:54] that type of modulation scheme um like there's no reason someone can't build a version of ferridae that uses qpsk or bpsk and it literally looks the same like sure it can't talk to my

[00:54:08] radio hardware but over over the network over the back end that used to say the internet or some ethernet protocols um once it reaches say land uh it's all packets at that point and you can

[00:54:20] switch between networks and this should be we should view him radio as this this a build this medium that we can build upon to do things with it doesn't have to be like oh well my radio

[00:54:33] doesn't talk your modulation so i can't talk to you it's like well the why don't we just all meet on one common layer like the internet essentially or at least ethernet doesn't have

[00:54:42] to be the internet could just be an ethernet network um and then when we all agree upon that then we can go between each other's modulation schemes like no problem um to me that's an

[00:54:54] exciting um exciting thought well to remove that that wall of having just looking at from a dollars and cents perspective instead of having to buy four different walkie talkie handi talkie radios that do these four different modulation schemes you could have one of course

[00:55:13] the big three won't like that but you could have one that would be able to talk between them all and um i mean i know there's some technology similar that's just doing that now

[00:55:23] but you could you could have that and it would it would break down some of those barriers and allow you to uh to make those contacts or the data points or whatnot to to grow out

[00:55:33] what you're thinking about doing and yeah we've kind of viewed it as um we've kind of viewed it as you know the whole like um don't ask for permission you know as you know as for forgiveness

[00:55:47] right um where you know yeah technically we're building another like another protocol or essentially another way to talk radio but i guess the big difference on ours is ours is like actually

[00:56:01] open and the idea of it is just meet basically meet meet on a you know local interface like like like ethernet and as long as your communications are there essentially it doesn't matter what radio you are it doesn't matter like interoperability shouldn't shouldn't be what modulation you use

[00:56:23] it you should be agnostic to that and uh in that ideology is something we're really excited about where um people can just come and build a project that as long as you talk in this way

[00:56:34] over say uh an api no one cares do what you do whatever you want on the radio like whatever modulation scheme band frequency whatever as long as you talk say this api you're good we can all

[00:56:49] we can all communicate yeah um um and i think it's important to note that when we say interoperability we don't just mean on the radio waves on rf it is interoperability doesn't mean that the you can

[00:57:04] transmit um multiple multiple radio modulations maybe they are incompatible from a or an rf perspective but on the back end through the internet or let's say you set up a ham a ham net uh backbone rf so

[00:57:18] you don't even actually use the internet but it's all based on ip and you can interact with each other on the on on the application level and transfer so like like like your landline phone still talks

[00:57:33] to cell phones they are two very different technologies but they meet at a common layer in software and that's where we're bringing ham radio um and i i like to point out kale uh

[00:57:44] because you because you keep using the term um making contacts or data points and and that's um something very important to realize about where we're trying to bring faraday ham radio is that we are challenging the notion within radio of making a contact that

[00:58:05] you actually physically do that like right now all these digital modes that are out there they're very popular fta psk they all use the human as the sort of operator and where the newer

[00:58:21] technology digital technology is bringing radio like faraday is very much like um a ham net like you are not actively making the message transactions between ham that you know you're you're just using application and what it's really challenging is this notion of making

[00:58:38] a contact or being real time with that communication so how can we use ham radio in non real time applications or in semi real time applications i might be talking to you uh but maybe i leave

[00:58:50] a message maybe i have a remote station that i may not be physically at all the time um yeah uh really sort of pushing a little bit more of like automation within ham radio

[00:59:05] and seeing let's focus on the application side how can we make ham radio fun using new technology i love it i mean yeah i get what you're saying and thank you for that correction or

[00:59:18] bringing that out because it's it is so much more that you're like you said we have we have all these abilities i think even in some of your your papers there on your your website

[00:59:29] you know we we have this band that we really don't even participate in but we we can do all sorts of things in it if we'll just start doing it so let me ask you this here i am on my farm uh

[00:59:41] there's not any connectivity down here at all so what can i do with a fair day rf set of radios on my barn on my farm around my barn around the house a local ham the the closest one i have

[00:59:55] is about four and a half miles away um what kind of ways could we use this to enhance our hobby and enjoyment with ham radio and fair day rf uh so right right now we one of the main aspects we've

[01:00:11] developed for is telemetry um now we're great for a whole another discussion is this next push we're moving on to for general data but um as the software and is currently designed

[01:00:25] um we essentially are a very very nice um the aprs uh module at the moment and so we can send uh some high accuracy 12 bit 80c measurements so telemetry of temperature anything that you you can hook up to

[01:00:43] it essentially uh we do that and it goes several miles so um you can you can essentially track things or um and basically look like an aprs station with telemetry so uh one of the things that we

[01:00:56] actually provided that's open source is telemetry dot ferridae rf.com which is um still it's very much in beta so you know sometimes it just goes down but um it is a a new way of looking at aprs data

[01:01:09] like let's make data centric and you can look at all the graphs on it and it allows you to see a kind of a whole new view of what um of what data looks like in terms of ham radio so those are some

[01:01:23] things you can do immediately right now um and it kind of just fits into the aprs network but again this is uh not our day job and it's a very much a you know it is something that

[01:01:37] I would always love to put more time into but oftentimes uh oftentimes space x takes a precedence actually every time space x takes precedence so um you know sometimes it gets hard and waxes and

[01:01:50] wanes in terms of the development there but yeah it's we're certainly on a pretty clear path as what to what we are working towards and I'm pretty proud of what what it does right now and um

[01:02:03] I think Brent will probably have a few comments on that but it's it's capable right now as essentially a very very nice aprs tracker that we have we have had to communicate reliably over 24 miles now that's line of sight so you have to have some elevation advantage there

[01:02:23] but um you know from uh from a 60 foot advantage so you know top of a house or whatever a hill you can easily go 10 20 10 12 miles um the line of sight um you get those advantages

[01:02:38] with with that and you don't have the whole aprs afsk kind of fun that at least you you have large issues with afsk here in the las angeles area um on the aprs network oh yeah it's

[01:02:53] it's hard I would I would go hike with my um my yesu vx 8r um on the mountains here in las angeles so I'm like next I'm I'm like a mile or two away from the repeater sites and every five

[01:03:05] minutes I'd send out a packet and after like a six hour hike maybe maybe 10 packets got in the rest of them just they that was one of the things that was one of the reasons we looked at

[01:03:15] it at this problem and said how can we solve this because you know say the delay tolerant networks and stuff like that is those would solve these problems or um like fair days hardware and something we very much plan on actually implementing as as we make progress

[01:03:29] is things like tdma um or where you are you are you are actively managing who talks when so that you you minimize the the the conflicts and you you optimize how many stations and

[01:03:43] how much traffic you can handle at once nice yeah I'll add in there that's um that cal uh a price overview very nice what you can currently do with it and a lot of that too was us learning how

[01:03:57] how to how to be software programmers because we're hard work by nature and yeah yeah um and yeah I'd love to have a whole talk on where we're going and uh oh absolutely where where

[01:04:11] where we see fair day in the next two to four months being able to do um is hook it up to your computer a computer raspberry pi your main desktop laptop whatever um and it will

[01:04:26] look like a network card like a network interface that you plug in into um and you can then uh interact with it uh with applications that that that either uh you know that use standard tcpip

[01:04:41] you know you could think do things between if you have two computers uh you should be able to just open up like files zilla and transfer files between them or like irc or irc and have a

[01:04:52] communication between irc and irc between these two units you will never know that this is a radio link it just looks like a network interface but it has no internet connection and because it's just between these radios um and then there are other applications that will you can

[01:05:07] you know that may be more radio centric um maybe implement delay talent networks um maybe you can set up you know your own little at an internet or something but the options are all there

[01:05:22] where we're pushing is to do a generic like wireless modem where the the world is your oyster and you can just build build what you want um and we'll we'll be there building uh

[01:05:37] but it if you want to do digital voice um that application uh platform that we're building will allow you to do that and and we can show you how to do that on on on our website

[01:05:48] that's one of our goals that we will do is to use um open source codex to go and transfer digital audio between you know live between multiple ferrities and

[01:06:01] yeah um I forgot my next point I was gonna make but I think I'll wrap it up on that well it you know it you've been talking for a while here yeah it helps bring it in yeah exactly

[01:06:11] and speaking of space six we know that they do come first and you guys have been so gracious with your time I would like to further investigate this and get get your next steps out

[01:06:23] at another time when we have time but you're you're doing exactly what I thought you were doing and it's not something that I could sit down and explain to my wife she wouldn't be interested

[01:06:34] anyway let's be honest but I couldn't explain it to her but I can now further and better understand where you're going the mindset behind it and it's very exciting because again going back to the very first part of our conversation we've even had is well what about

[01:06:51] the youth what are we going to give them to do I mean they might not be interested in learning CW or are getting on FT-8 and making these contacts all over the world but if we can put something

[01:06:59] in their hand that will give them an opportunity to connect with another person or a station to pass data voice or anything or even leave it running while they're at work working on satellites or you know rocket ships this gives them an opportunity that to participate in this

[01:07:16] and take the hobby to the next level I to me it's extremely exciting and I'm really stoked that you guys are doing this thank you um and actually uh uh that brought up a a point that

[01:07:29] you know someone asked me once how how what would make me realize that we were successful in Faraday's project and and for me personally I would consider that as as if if especially

[01:07:47] younger people maybe college age are using ham radio especially Faraday would be would be you know the example here to not only have fun and and participate within within ham radio but also

[01:08:00] to learn and develop their electronic skills and engineering skill sets it be used to hobby as a medium like it has always been to experiment with electronics in a more relevant way I think

[01:08:14] that's a win in my book um and I think I think you're right that um I think we need to accept that the next generation of ham radio may not want to learn CW they may not want to just make

[01:08:29] contacts per se maybe their hobby will change and actually one of our largest challenges within Faraday is not technical is social and and um yeah people are very afraid of of sort of like their

[01:08:47] hobby as if as if you know it's it's one person's hobby changing yeah um and and that's a very interesting conversation to have with people I think it's important to also note that like

[01:08:59] we're not saying people shouldn't talk like CW instead it's like you do what you want it's just that may not be the focus in the future yeah yeah you guys are trying to fill a niche that maybe

[01:09:08] have it hasn't even shown up yet but in advance yeah that's exciting stuff man well I know that both of you have a lot to do today we here appreciate your your time and really would like to come

[01:09:20] revisit the future of Faraday RF in the in our very near future and thank you again it's been a blast having both of you again the first brothers the first twins the first consecutive

[01:09:31] call signs and the very first rocket what is that what's the joke it's uh it's rocket surgery our first rocket surgeons here on the show guys thank you both very much no problem hey thank you too welcome

[01:09:44] have a good one I think their parents will be very proud of them they've done a they've done quite a job and still doing I mean you think about it rocket scientists that's that's a pretty

[01:09:57] good pretty good position to be in especially uh when you're working spacex so thank you Brent and Bryce for being here with us we appreciate you hanging out helping us further understand not only the millennials but learning more about ham radio in the future as uh as we

[01:10:14] all try to get there so thanks for that as well as thank you for listening thank you for your support of the show we are ham radio 360 the podcast you can find us online ham radio 360

[01:10:24] dot com I anticipate having the brothers back on pretty soon I don't know how soon it'll be but I anticipate sometime probably first the second quarter of this year to have them participate with us again I've got some more great stuff lined up please don't

[01:10:39] miss it share the show with your friends let them know that we're still here still making great content at least I think so and hope you guys have a wonderful day thank you so much for

[01:10:48] listening and I'll catch you next time 73 y'all thank you for listening you can find more online at ham radio 360 dot com 73 y'all